The Evangelical Alliance's Response to Vicky Beeching

You may have seen the news that Christian rock singer-songwriter Vicky Beeching came out the other day.

In her interview with Patrick Strudwick in The Independent you can see the harrowing measures that Vicky went to to pray away the gay, get rid of her attraction to people of the same-sex and even though , as she says, it wasn't something that was directly taught, it was something that somehow as a Christian she felt she had to be ashamed of and hid away. There is even the harrowing tale of the meeting where she feels the need to go forward for prayer and have those feelings prayed away. That is an experience that I can fully empathise with as I went through the same sort of experience one time at the end of a meeting that I was leading worship at.

Today the Evangelical Alliance has responded, as an ex member of the Evangelical Alliance it is the sort of response I was expecting. Instead of listening to the concerns of Vicky and the many others of us who have struggled and been vocal about those struggles, they immediately strike back with someone who claims to only have had positive experiences. Like Vicky many of those that struggle come to the point where we realise that the way to stop our struggles is not to be ashamed of failing to do away with our feelings, but to realise that we are made and loved by God.

I'm not doubting that Pastor Ed Shaw, who the EA are using as their frontman, on this issue has had a lot of positive experience, but I do doubt that universally "rather than looking down on [him] they've looked up to [him] –wanting to benefit from [his] perspective." Now I know some of my evangelical friends do have that reaction, but that is the people who have known me well, but even that is not 100% inclusive.

There are others some who do not know me at all, some who know me reasonably well, who say just because I speak up for LGBT members of our churches that I have no right to say the things I say. I should just keep schtum. Rather than wanting to learn from my perspective or even listen to it they want to silence me and the others that I know of, and speak for who are not prepared to have their voices heard.

My own church the Presbyterian Church in Ireland said 7 years ago that is would listen to people with "same-sex attraction" (their phrase) and give them a safe place in which to address their issues, amongst other recommendations. But I have yet to seen evidence that this has been done. In the meantime of course when I felt that the anti same-sex marriage campaign had over 2 months of publicity in the vestibule of the church (using some very un-Christian language against Lynne Featherstone) making me feel uncomfortable being there. That instead of understanding, an apology or listening there was censor in the one ministry I was providing, a lecture and failure to address the issues at hand.

The latter is sadly more likely to be the response within Evangelical Church leaderships. It may not be the case among evangelical friends many of whom give me unconditional support, but that was based on years of me being able to fit in under the radar and not being fully open about myself. It ignores that fact that I struggled through my teenage years and 20s with thoughts of suicide or running away from it all. Not knowing who to turn to, bottling everything in. Many I know have been unable to bottle it in long enough to be confident in their own relation with God, and that is the problem.

Vicky like myself has come through many struggles. She even had the added pressure of losing her livelihood potentially as a result so kept it in during those Californian concerts ahead of Proposition 8.

Rather than automatically jump to preach mode I wish that the EA, churches and others actually do listen, and also look at the texts they keep quoting with an open eye, not the way their have been translated and mistranslated down the years.

Apparently I'm a leper now #lgbt

According to a conference that is being held in Orangefield Presbyterian Church I am a leper. The conference in organised by Core Issues who encourage reparative therapy for LGBT people who struggle to reconcile this with their faith.

The opening quote inside their literature make horrific reading (emphasis mine)

Failure to live out the reality of Jesus Christ’s presence in the common life of the church with those who struggle with same sex sins is a disease of epic proportions, a malignancy that
spreads throughout the Body and resurfaces as the Evangelical, Biblebelieving church attempts to deal with other sin issues. This failure is merely symptomatic of other deeper issues within the body, diseases that are not so easily identifiable nor that carry the same stigma or bigotry: spiritual complacency and ambivalence, hypocrisy, unaccountability and Biblical ignorance.”
- The Lepers Among Us

Of course where does that stigma and bigotry come from?

This has spurred me to write the following email to the Presbyterian Church in Ireland's Board of Social Witness and the congregations involved.

As someone baptised into Trinity Presbyterian Church, Bangor where I currently attend I am appalled to learn that the Rev Jim Reynolds is holding a conference entitled:

The Leper Among Us: Homosexuality and Life in the Church 

on the premises of Orangefield Presbyterian Church and on the Sunday shall be preaching at Hamilton Road Presbyterian Church.

The title of such a conference victimises and diminishes LGBT people which seems to be in direct contravention of recommendation 2 of the Board of Social Witness's Social Issues and Resources Panel Pastoral guidelines Homosexuality (March 2007).

Fails to "encourage our congregations to ’Create an environment of love, acceptance, patience, forgiveness and grace." as in recommendation 4 as above.

In creates the feeling of unsafe spaces in these two congregations and potentially others in the PCI, when recommendation 5 called to create a safe space, which I believe has not yet been achieved.

The controversial methods espoused by Rev. Reynolds are things that I would never expect to a member congregation of the General Assembly to host. As one of the LGBT attendees of the PCI (currently not a member due to your guideline) maybe I am a Leper in your eyes. I am already excluded from full membership. Maybe you would want me to sound a bell and stay outside the building on a Sunday. Maybe you'd like me to get an extra long lead so that I can play my bass guitar to help lead worship so as I do not come inside the precincts of the building.
Of maybe both the congregations involved will take the time available to live up to recommendation 3 in the pastoral guidelines:

encourage repentance for the occasions when persons with same sex attractions have been treated in ways severely lacking in grace within the Presbyterian Church in Ireland and that the Assembly encourage an attitude of grace and mercy to be actively shown to all who struggle with different aspects of their sexuality.

I'm hurt by the failure of adherence to your own pastoral guidelines. I'm hurt by the lack of action on those recommendations from 2007. I'm hurt by the treatment of LGBT members by the congregations to be associated with someone who names them lepers within. These actions are lacking in the grace that the Board of Social Witness recommendations sought to deal with. 

Some Pastors do get the harm done by Churches to LGBT pride

I'd like to thank my cousin for pointing this link out to me. In a week when first our future Health Minister and then a church leader came up with excuses to avoid engagement with the LGBT community in Belfast, what better way to start Pride Parade Day than this message from Hans Kristensen, leading Pastor of Resolved Church in Sydney.

• I am sorry that a lot of Christians have not treated you with dignity and respect even though as people you are created in the image of God
• I am sorry that a lot of Christians have not listened to you. We haven’t spent the time to hear about you and your hurts and fears and dreams.
• I am sorry that a lot of Christians (especially the ones on T.V.) talk about being gay as if it is the worst thing even as we turn a blind eye to our greed, gossip, slander and other sins we make excuses for
• I am sorry for TV Evangelists because they are TV Evangelists
• I am sorry that in our conversation we major on your sin when I think Jesus would have majored on his love
• I am sorry that we have not been there for you in your dark times. When you have seen friends die of AIDS. When many from within your number have committed suicide.
• I am sorry that we have not preached against the sin of Homophobia
• I am sorry that we have kept saying that we are all sinners which has made many of you wonder why is being gay so bad if we are all sinners? We should have communicated that the response we all have to make to Gods love is one of repentance.
• I am sorry that we have tried to cure you of your homosexuality instead of helping you see how Jesus transforms who you are and gives you a new identity.
• I am sorry that we have not loved you as God himself loves you.

I am sorry for all these things and I hope you can forgive us. We would love to start a conversation about who Jesus is and how much he has done for you and how much he loves you.

As I mentioned on Thursday night there was a young Presbyterian training for the ministry at Hymn or Us who similarly asked to start that conversation, I just hope and prayer that more of them come forward in Northern Ireland. In our churches, in our politics and in our workplaces. So that we can feel able to be who we are without fear.

'Hymn or Us' without Him

Last night the Rev David McIlveen didn't turn up to GLYNI (Gay and Lesbian Youth Northern Ireland's) even for the Belfast Pride Festival entitled "Hymn or Us". It was a look at can homosexuality and being LGBT co-exist. Earlier in the week on BBC Radio Ulster's Wendy Talks Back while discussing the non-appearance of Jim Wells at the "Pride on the Hill" David McIlveen and Simon Rae the secretary of Belfast Pride both showed that Rev McIlveen was more than welcome to return to Pride in the debate that was due to happen last night; he'd appeared at a similar event last year.

However, Rev McIlveen was unable to attend dues to "an issue in his church". He was replaced by a Church of Ireland lay preacher Dermot O’Callaghan, who along with Mike Davidson of Core Issues, Pádraig Ó Tuama of Irish Peace Centres and Rev Chris Hudson of All Souls Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church took questions from the audience directed by the BBC William Crawley.

The discussion was wide ranging seeing as there were a high number of LGBT people of faith in the room with a vast variety of personal experiences. There also were a number of straight people in the room, some the parents of LGBT children, one a young man training to be a minister in the Presbyterian Church.

Dermot O'Callaghan tried to use some rather selective science, just as yesterday Rev McIlveen's church tried to use rather selective readings from the King James Bible, to say that being gay was down to nurture not nature. Apparently it is not the same as left handedness or skin colour as something we are born with because there are twins who are not both gay, I know some twins who are not both left handed as well. Well there was one blogger's father who asked the pertinent question about how he didn't bring up his sons to be gay, he didn't nurture them that way, and did that make him a bad father or his wife a bad mother.

Somebody else had asked Mike Davidson of Core Issues after he said that he started with the presumption that homosexuality was a sin and that reparative therapy wouldn't work for everyone, did that mean that some people were beyond salvation. After a bit of stumbling he said yes. But William Crawley also challenged him on his qualifications, or lack thereof for giving therapy. The killing blow came when he was asked "Most therapists see someone unqualified providing therapy and counselling as unethical." Davidson actually replied "Yes" before going on to try and cover his tracks.

Chris Hudson brought up a good point about those who disagree that you can be gay and a Christian, as these people concentrate more on the practise that the being. He said that the bible isn't a sex guide but a book about love with a care ethic.

Then the young Presbyterian Minister in training got up near the end. Admitting that these were his first baby steps into this whole element of theological thought. But at least he was there. He saw that the LGBT community can respect those that disagree with us and not shout them down, lock them out or ignore their opinions as is often the case in the reverse. I hope he does look at these things more fully, I obviously gave him a few tips of where to start from within the PCI, like the Board of Social Witnesses own pastoral guidelines and what they are doing about the action points, something I may have blogged about before.

Anyway it was a night of good discussion and there was certainly a lot to take away and think about, as much for the panellists and those in the audience.

Update Thanks to IcedCoffee for pointing me in the direction of this Vlog by @RuthEbabes

Selective celebration of the King James Version from Sandown

By all means Sandown Free Presbyterian are more than welcome to give thanks for the 400th Anniversary of the King James Bible but they are rather selective in how they are going about it.

Some people on Twitter are wondering what they will be doing for a grand finale. Will they take out Iris Robinson and Kirk McCambley and stone them on the Square in front of St. Anne's Cathedral after all in Leviticus 20 v 10 it says:

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

Actually as this comes three verses earlier than one they quote in their advert maybe this should be the warm up act.

Or if they are so worried about abominations mabe they should picket outside the Mourne Seafood Bar while they continue to serve oysters, crab, prawns and lobster after all:

"And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you. They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcasses in abomination.Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you." Leviticus 11:10-12

 Or maybe they will have to have a witness outside House of Fraser or in the Victoria Shopping Centre or Castle Court or basically any shop that sells clothing after all:

"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God." Deutoronomy 22:5

Of course while they rejoice incircimventing the law that says that a protest against a parade needs to be registered with the Parade Commission maybe they should bear this one in mind next time they feel like praying.

"He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination." Proverbs 28:9

Of these other protests, or as they would like to have you say 'witnesses' will not be taking place this this 400th Anniversary year of the King James Bible that they hold so dear, even though many of the translations within it are of the time of writing to keep the propriety of the reader.

A Church that floats

The bible doesn't have the best of times with maritime adventures.

Jonah tried to flee on one but was caught up in storm, drew the short lot to appease the gods and was thrown overboard.

Jesus's disciples set out on one on the Sea, it got stormy and he came walking on the water.

As for Paul he got shipwrecked in the Med and ending up founding the basis of the Maltese Tourist trade.

However, one is planned to be used as a Church in Belfast's Titanic Quarter. One that will be cross denominational, cross community, with each denomination being asked to nominate a chaplain for the venture. Catholic and Protestant all in the same boat for the growing residential element of that newly developing quarter.

Rev. Chris Bennett (who featured on this blog before as our Titanic walking tour guide) who is one of the chaplains for the Dock Church says:

"To avoid being identified with one community or another, this shared space will be something radically different to the familiar church buildings of all traditions - a boat moored in the heart of the Titanic Quarter.

"Each denomination will be invited to provide a chaplain to the boat, just as they currently provide chaplains to work in shared spaces in universities and hospitals across Northern Ireland."

The business plan has been published and now the people behind hte project are looking for a suitable vessel, passenger ship or riverboat in the £250,000 - £400,000 price range to serve as the Church, community centrre and cafe.


Before anyone makes jokes about using a boat as a church in the Titanic Quarter, may I remind you all "That she was alright when she left here!"

Tattooing in Church

The Tattooed Priest from Baz Luhrman's Romeo and Juliet

I was rather surprised this morning when the first words of the children's address were:

"Does any of you have a tattoo?"

I think I was almost as shocked as the Minister finding out that one little girl's hand went up in the affirmative response. Fortunately hers is a temporary version, probably picked up at some party yesterday.

The reason I posted it was that, as I've blogged before,Leviticus 19:28 says:

"Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord" New International Version

I said then that it was selective theology of the guy who had Leviticus 18:22 tattooed on his skin, i.e.

"You shall not lie with a male, as one does with a female. It is an abomination." New American Standard Bible

So how am I to react then? If the same man who asked if I were a homosexual before saying he could not recommend me for membership, then turns around and gives a children's talk mentioning tattoos. Even so far as implying that some in the church have them, and talking about David Beckham's in a positive not negative way. Is this not also selective theology?

Where was the condemnation or cautionary notes about tattoos at a talk aimed at ones so young? Nowhere! Just the repeating of what one youngster said that "Those tattoos were for grown ups."

When all I want to do is be open to the possibility that I may fall in love with someone why do I stand condemned in the tattoo parlour of church. I'm told to be celibate, or not be open and honest about my sexuality. Yet in the words of Paul:

"If they cannot control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It's better to marry than to burn with lust" 1 Corinthians 7:9 New Living Translation 2nd Edition

Is it double standards? Double standards that I know don't apply in all Christians or in all churches. Is it time to look for somewhere where I can feel accepted as who I am?

For clarity The point being made was about Isaiah 49:16, where it says. "See, I [The Lord] have written your names in the palms of my hands" New International Readers Version

Glenn family church reopens

Picture from The Belfast Telegraph

When you walk out of First Derry Presbyterian Church you walk straight out unto the City Walls overlooking the Bogside, Creggan and Brandywell areas of the city. Down below you can make out Free Derry corner.

It is the church that my father first got involved in the Boys Brigade an assossiationwith the organisation that would last the rest of his life. An organisation that is now being attended by the third generation of his family.

It was where my father and his father before him served as League of Church Loyalty Secretary encouraging regular attendance from the children. A role that I took on at Trinity Bangor in later years. 

One of the times I walked out of there I did so alongside my late father, brother and one other male relative. On our shoulders was the coffin of a widow of a former elder of the church, my grandmother. My cousin Rachel was playing Vivaldi's Spring on her violin as we walked down the aisle, I'd previously been up in that pulpit to give a reading.

It was Good Friday.

As a result when a few years later on another Good Friday the politicians of Northern Ireland managed to sign an agreement between them about a combined future for Northern Ireland I remembered the symbolism of that woman's life.

She spent all of her married, and much of her widowed life, in the Fountain area. That is a working class terraced housed area to the South West of the City Walls. As the protestant community largely moved to the other side of the Foyle during  the height of the troubles she was one of the shrinking number that remained on the Cityside. When she finally did have to move into the Presbyterian nursing home on the Waterside of the City over the bridge, her furniture went to a Catholic family that had recently been petrol bombed.

The fact that the public statue Hands Across the Divide should then be erected at the foot of the Fountain area, and across the road from the factory where my Grandmother worked speaks volumes to the way my family was always brought up in Northern Ireland. So that when earlier this year I stood there with the new MLA Mark H Durkan again I wasn't something that she would have been shocked by, she would have expected that of me.

With Mark H Durkan MLA (right) at Hands Across the Divide

When the Church was reopened this weekend there was the Sinn Féin deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness in attendance and the SDLP Mayor of Derry City Council, Colum Eastwood MLA. Along with teh Chief Constable of the PSNI Mark Baggott as well as both Bishops.

After being shut for 9 years and after £1.5 million in refurbishment their presence really was a symbol as the Minister Rev Dr David Latimer said of the shared future all the people of Derry/Londonderry crave.

Picture from the Newsletter

Including f. row 2nd left Colum Eastwood MLA Mayor of Derry, Most Rev. Séamus Hegarty, Lord Bishop of Derry (RC), Rev. Dr. David Latimer Minister First Derry Presbyterian Church , Martin McGuinness MP, MLA, Deputy First Minister, William Hay MLA, Speaker of the Assembly, Rt. Rev. Kenneth Good Bishop of Derry and Raphoe (CoI).

In behind the DFM is Chief Constable Mark Baggott PSNI. Also in the picture are John Hume and Mark Durkan MP

Why I Need to Still Go to Church - Two Years On

It doesn't seem like almost two years since I stood on the Mound in Edinburgh outside the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland to show my support for my friend Rev. Scott Rennie. However, although the vote that day went in favour of Scott's calling to Queen's Cross in Aberdeen there was a later discussion that put a moritorium on openly gay trainees for the ministry and appointing openly gay ministers. News today that the Special Commission on Same Sex Relationships and the Ministry* is to report to next month's Assembly signals an end of that process and a period when those within the church weren't to discuss this further.

What the commission has come up with in its recommendations are two trajectories.The first of which is to implement a ban on homosexuals training to be ministers — despite such discrimination being illegal — while the second is to allow people in a same-sex relationship to train for the ministry but set up a theological commission to come up with a definitive answer in 2013. Therefore one is a full stop to any progress, the other is to allow another 2 years of thinking time.

I've written in the past that my own personal journey and struggle to reconcile my faith with my sexuality took over a decade, "so I don't expect the Church to totally come to terms with things overnight. Although they have had 2000 or so years to get to grips with these issues." Therefore I'm wondering why the need for another two year commission to look at the theological questions. When the commision was established it knew it was facing a two-year moritorium on the issue, they would know that people would expectantly waiting to hear their findings, not only within the church but further afield. So the fact that one trajectory is a clear no and the other is a cloudy maybe is not good enough.

One thing the commission did say is that the church needs to acknowledge that homophobia is a sin, that the church should not be hostile to homosexuality. Also it should not deny those who are homosexual by orientation from being members or taking up positions of leadership.

Why is that a big deal you may ask? As my friend Caron wrote two years ago about her days at University:

"It was clear that [my gay friends] weren't welcome [within the Christian Union] just on the basis of their sexuality. That seemed fundamentally unfair to me and I ultimately decided that if you had to be like that to be in the Church, then I wasn't going to bother, thank you very much."

It was something I myself faced up to earlier this year.Whilst the church I grew up in and am attending again is happy that I play bass in the praise band (and I often get complimented for the sympathetic way that I do after services) I'm not a full member. Despite having become a member there in my teens on my profession of faith, that is no longer good enough. When I went for my membership interview, I was told that my blog had been read, and I was asked as question one, would I consider myself to be homosexual. Of course I would, I see part of what I have to do now as to help those young (and not so young) people who struggle with faith and sexuality issues, sometimes to the point of suicide, or contemplating it. 

At the ned of that interview it seemed to me that it would be far easier as a gay Christian to lie to yourself and to others. To bear false witness and pass all the comments about girlfriends or future wives off as not yet. Rather that allowing me the chance to carry on being happy accepting me as who I am rather than the misery that came with hiding my feelings for so long through my teens and twenties. I'm just glad that the place I was at in my forties enabled me to deal with such rejection, a teenage me might not have still been around after such rejection from the Church family that he had known all his life.

I wait to see what the Church of Scotland decide next month. There is a maybe option, and that is an option of hope for people like me within the Church who Christian and Lesbian, Gay or Bisexual.

* I note that the name of the commission has changed in the two years from one on Human Sexuality an inclusive title to only looking at Same-Sex relationships and the Ministry (lessening the scope).

Why I Need to Still Go To Church

Yesterday I was reminiscing about myself on the day after the last Westminster General Election. Well with news coverage over recent days I've also been reminiscing about a different day from 2005, the day of my Parliamentary Candidates Development Day.



Looking at that group of four potential approved candidates now they included the PPC for the target West Coast seat Katy Gordon PPC for Glasgow North, the 'go to' Lib Dem blogger for many in the MacBloggosphere in myself and the minister of the moment Rev Scott Rennie. The group of four on that day was a group not backward in coming forward, some would think quite a feisty bunch, but the least 'feisty' of the lot would probably have been Scott.*



Basically a eruption of criticism has blown up about Scott's sexuality which has been known publicly for some years because he has been called democratically, and that decision upheld democratically, to a new charge, Queen's Cross Church, in Aberdeen. Let's get the democracy of the decision clear Presbyterians require a 2/3rds majority of the communicant voting members of a church to call a new minister to become their pastor; Scott comfortably acquired 86%. The Aberdeenshire Presbytery which is the group of all Ministers in that area then ratified that decision in January by 60 votes to 24. In both cases to have such levels of support any politician would be happy. So why is the issue still up in the air and unclear?



I know that Caron, Lallands Peat Warrior and MacNumpty have all written excellent pieces from different standpoints and I recommend once you get to the end of this piece to go and read them all. But I feel able to add a little something different to the story because apart from that day I share a lot in common with Scott.



Like him I was raised in what was at the time a conservative Presbyterian Church, indeed my father was an Elder and Boys Brigade Captain. Like him after coming to my own faith and being settled in it I had to come to terms with my own sexuality. Like him I also had major struggles coming to terms with that while in a very active role of serving God, him during his pastoral role in Brechin me during my stint as a missionary. However, unlike Scott my victory in personally finally overcoming that struggle hasn't led afterwards to such media glare when I later moved to a different job in the same 'industry'.


Caron in her post pointed out that Scott said that gay Christians could feel isolated from both communities -sometimes the Church couldn't handle people being gay, but also some elements of the gay community couldn't handle Christianity. This is not only true of the community but often of the inner struggle within the Christian themselves. I know I struggled with that issue myself from my mid teens through to my late 20s over a decade, so I don't expect the Church to totally come to terms with things overnight. Although they have had 2000 or so years to get to grips with these issues. Caron mentioned her friends in the Christian Union at University changing her attitudes because of their attitudes to her gay friends. Of the over 6 years I spent on committees in my first three years of University it was the CU I spent most time on committee, so you can imagine the struggle I was having.

All of these people saw a certain element of me. Each new committee had to write encouraging things they found about each other in a sort of Chinese whisper sheet, my were always very deeply thought out and far from twee or predictable and I hold a lot of their comments dear. But very few got to see or hear of the full struggle. Indeed I don't think I would have expressed it to them or other close Christian friends with quite this amount of candour back then. When I finally came out to my parents which I thought would be all the harder because of all the Christian faith and experience between the three of us I was dreading the day. In the end the words passed my lip in a matter of fact sort of way and after one maybe two questions there was acceptance, love and understanding in just the Christian way that Jesus himself would I'm certain have shown.

Those Christians who believe in predestination believe that our paths are mapped out by God before we are even born: whether we become a Christian and how we will live are predetermined. These people are possibly some of the most literal believers of the bible and most homophobic element of the church. Yet by their very adherence to that stance they are found wanting on the issue of gay Christians. They cannot judge on someone's personal confession and salvation through grace. Indeed the fact that it is grace by which we are saved is a whole other theological ball game.

On the other hand you have those who believe our salvation is through free will. Good sound liberal bunch. Yet even they acknowledge that someone cannot chose their sexuality. One of the churches I worked with employed an open gay, though celibate, man. Others have youth leaders who have had sex before marriage, elders who have cheated on their wives etc. One thing does hold dear, all Christians should be accepted as an sinner saved by grace. And who are we to judge which Levitican abomination is allowed to be done away with over another.

Pass me the prawn cocktail in your polyester/cotton Sunday best over your cotton and lycra underwear even if you and your wife haven't maintained your proscribed time apart sexually following her period and let Scott Rennie, his partner David, his ex-wife and daughter get on with their life.

Don't be Pharisees when it comes to ranking the laws as you see fit.

The only way for gay Christians to gain acceptance in the Church is to keep turning up and in the gay community to not deny our faith. Let's get one thing clear Scott Rennie is an excellent Pastor the people of Queen's Cross congregation don't care about anything much beyond that, just like his church in Brechin before that. People like him show that Christ accepts us as we are, time for the Church to be a little more Christ like.

My dear friend Caron called her post on this subject "Why I no longer go to church" I hope I have put out at least part of the counterpoint from an insider's perspective.

Update: There is now a Facebook group in Support of Scott Rennie, please join it.
Update 2: I have just read the comments about this story on the Pink News article. Sadly it confirms the paradox that gay Christian's face. I've posted this response there.

It was very said reading some of the comments on here as a gay community we have fought for inclusion for so long. However, someone from our community who is different in this case a Christian, and a minister to boot, who has come to terms with that position and is 'proud' to be both is getting knocked back by some.

For Scott, like myself, it is a paradox that as a gay Christian we are often not accepted by the Church and also not accepted by the gay community. Those who are out as gay Christians have if my experience is anything to go on come through a lot of hard times not just from the respective communities but from ourselves.

If anyone in any other profession was in danger of being dismissed because of his sexuality we would all be united and up in arms standing with them. But even though he is one of us in an organistaion that in many ways needs to change its view of us we don't give the same support. The church needs changing on its views on sexuality the best way for that to be done is from the inside.

*For the record all four were approved, though the one who now is seen as a little bit of new media expert in certain fields in the Scottish Party was told he needed a little bit more media training. (Best not tell Clifton Terrace or Cowley Street I might lose some street cred and/or access)

Warren: It's Marriage Not Relationships That's the Issue

With less than a month to go to the inauguration of the first Black President of the United States, Rick Warren the pastor who some has, in the eyes of some been controversially, chosen to pray at that historic event has made a statement on gay marriage.

He said in the podcast released on Monday:

"I have in no way ever taught that homosexuality is the same thing as a forced relationship between an adult and a child, or between siblings. I was trying to point out I'm not opposed to gays having their partnership. I'm opposed to gays using the term marriage for their relationship."

Strange then that in the past he has made such comparisons of homosexuality with paedophilia, polygamy and incest, as he equated all four together only last week when he answered a question with a clear "I do".

He also said that while he doesn't equate homosexual relationships with incest or pedophilia, that he opposes redefining marriage just as any conservative Christian would. Problem with using such phraseology as that is very similar to what the conservative Christians in the American bible belt were saying about inter-racial marriage up to 41 years ago in 1967, when the Supreme Court overturned bans in Loving v. Virgina. Thing is he is opposed to Proposition 8 in California, which again was a redefinition of marriage.

Is Rev Warren, also opposed to the 1967 Supreme Court ruling? I don't think he is and am not accusing him of such. However, the thing is that laws are transitory the US has Supreme Courts at state and federal levels to past judgements on such things.

As any fan of The West Wing will know the USA hasn't always looked favourably on minorities. The rules of the Census as outlined in Mr. Willis of Ohio pointed out how the original wording from the founding father's appropriated proportions only of slaves or descendants of slaves towards state and national totals. So the rules move, the fact that Warren also quotes the extremely low church based guesstimate of 2% gay population rather than any scientifically sampled survey does not give his affectations any merit. Afterall the church is supposed to stand up for the underdog and the oppressed. Yet not as often in the past they are the oppressor and the big guys pulling their disproportionate weight.

His Larry Ross a spokesman for Warren's Saddleback church tried to ease things over by saying the church's view that Scripture prohibits sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman.

Anyone can attend Saddleback worship services. But the church article had said that gays "unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle would not be accepted" as members. One wonders just how many Saddleback members have or are having heterosexual relationship in a lifestyle not conforming to the churches view. But that is an investigation for another day.